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Maria Spassova

Thanos Veremis is e modern Greek history professor in Athens University and right now is also a chairman of the National Education council in Greece. He is an author of many books – “Military men in Greek history,” “Western interference in Yugoslavia,” Modern Greece: History after 1821”. I met him the morning after the elections on October 4. His analytical qualities are deeply valued by foreign correspondents, because we have to wait for each other in order to take an interview.

Professor Veremis how would you evaluate the results from the parliament elections in Greece? Did you expect those results?

I was expecting that PASOK would win. I was expecting that it will form an independent government but I did not expect that they will get such majority and they will get 160 members in the parliament. I believe that even PASOK did not expect this.

How would you explain this majority?

Mainly this was a vote coming from the discontent and disappointment from the rule of New Democracy, which did very few things during its mandate. It was also a discontent vote against Karamanlis himself, who chose average people for his government. Voters do not like this. Of course, PASOK took some things from the leftists – the communist party and the coalition of the radical leftists, who have fewer votes compared to last year. But mainly he took votes from New Democracy. This is very interesting, because many PASOK supporters voted for New Democracy on the previous elections.

Now everybody is expecting to see what the new government will do. The economy is Greece’s main problem, what do you think Papandreou will do first in that regard?

Look, Papandreou’s pre-election message was reallocation – to give money to the poor. I don’t see how he can do that, because the only way to give money is if you do not have debts. Debts are very expensive for Greece right now, because it has high budget deficit. So Papandreou cannot do what he promised. What he can do is what Karamanlis promised – strict financial discipline. This can be done only if his actions are based on simple logic. I see limitations and discipline in the following two years and I hope it will be like that. Because if this does not happen, the following 10 years will be full of discipline and limitations. There is no other choice. Our national debt is very high. It is as high as Italy’s but Italy is an industrial country. Greece is not – we have shipping, which does not does not bring so much money and tourist, which strictly depends on the situation of the EU and the world, which is different each year. In other words if Papandreou does not rely on strict financial discipline, someone else will have to do it but for many more years ahead.

 Regarding the other big problems of the country – the reform in higher education, corruption, tax collection – what do you believe the new government will do?

The answers of these questions depend on who the ministers will be. For example if Ana Diamantopoulou is minister of education, she can do many things, because she knows the problems in the field. During the time of Marieta Yanakou some main changes started in higher education. If those changed also transfer to high school education than this government will do a much better job than the previous one. Corruption. It requires decisiveness. You cannot fight it with words. It should be fought by the authorities. If a special institution for policemen selection is not created, who will deal with corruption, the problem will not disappear by itself. Work is not done with good intentions. The same goes for avoiding taxes. It is an entirely police subject. You put policemen in front of the doctors and lawyers offices and you see whether everybody is getting invoices. If not, those are black money. This is a public secret. Most people in the services field – plumbers, doctors, lawyers – do not issue invoices. Police is needed for this, not words. Will Papandreou find the courage to do this? I don’t know.

What changes will come regarding foreign policy? Do you think the relationship with Skopje will be influenced?

Probably not. Regarding the former Republic of Yugoslavia, the parties have reached a consensus. OK, not all of them. For example, we don’t know what the communist party thinks about that. But the others have agreed that Greece cannot accept the name “Macedonia” to be used by a country. There is Bulgarian Macedonia, there is Greek Macedonia there is also a so-called Slav-Macedonia. But there cannot be a Republic of Macedonia. There can be North Macedonia, New Macedonia. I would like to see direct negotiations between Athens and Skopje but until now Gruevski has not given a sign he is ready for such a thing compared to Tzarvenkovski, who was a lot more flexible.

How will the relationship with Turkey develop?

The relationship with Turkey changes with every other day. Right now everything is calm. Well, from time to time we have some violations of our air space in the Aegean Sea. Erdogan has other goals – he want to take the Muslims out in the open and to put a stop to suppression. He is a man of many abilities and I don’t think Greece interests him that much.

Papandreou is famous for his good relations with the US. In the eyes of some this is an advantage but in others – a disadvantage. What do you believe?

Well, to have good connections with a super power is not bad, it is good. The important thing is what decision will be made. In Greece many people believe, including Karamanlis, that contacts with Russia are useful and necessary. We are situated in the part of the world where Russia is the biggest energy producer and we need that. What can we do? America has not helped Greece in 40 years. It is far from Greek interests. Russia is closer to our country’s economic interests, because it has petrol and natural gas. How can you in e bad relationship with the one who own the monopoly production? I think Karamanlis did well, when he kept the dialogue with Russia. I understand America does not like that but this is politics.

As a historian, if you compare Georgios Papandreou with Andreas Papandreou, what would you say the differences and similarities are?

As politicians they have nothing in common. Georgios did not inherit anything positive or negative from his father. Andreas Papandreou had many disadvantages. And I do not mean women – this is humanly. He was a man who lived for today and not for tomorrow. This is why he left so many problems behind his back. His government was wrong for Greek economy – he left high budget deficit and a party in bad condition, just like Karamanlis. Karamanlis is a good student of Andreas Papandreou. He surrounded himself with plain people, in order not to feel threatened. This was Karamanlis’ big mistake, which he learned from Andreas. Andreas surrounded himself with useless people and for me it is still a mystery how a good politician like Kostas Simitis managed to survive in this party. He also managed to make a good government, which did not include only the old socialist generation. Unfortunately Georgios chased those people out or discouraged them. For example, such politician is Alekos Papadopoulos, who is a good politician, he did a lot of work in all ministries he worked. But he resigned and he did not compete in the latest elections. Georgios does not have the brilliant mind of his father but he is also not as superficial as him too. He seems to be a more serious person.

Let us go to New Democracy now. Could there have been a scenario “ala Tony Blair” for Karamanlis and the party? In other words, could he have resigned from the leadership without having elections, so that the party and the country coule be taken be someone else?

No, this could not happen in Greece. Only Simitis did this with Papandreou. Here party chairmen have big opinions about themselves. When they are Prime Minister they have a lot of power and they believe they are irreplaceable. They need to experience a big hit from the voters in order to leave. As it happened on Sunday. A while ago this is how Mitzotakis left. I believe that Karamanlis did not expect such little support from the voters. He found this out on Sunday and he felt as struck by a lightening.

How do you see New Democracy developing inside?

Probably Dora Bakoyanni will be the new chairwoman of the party. Except if they do not surprise us and put a temporary chairman like Groegios Souflyas for example. But I believe it will be Dora…

What is Kostas Karamanlis’  political future? If he has any…

Kostas Karamanlis does not have a political future. Gradually he will withdraw from active politics. He will remain in the parliament for a while then he will withdraw and write his memoires. Despite the fact that he is a young man. Of course, it depends how things will go in New Democracy. Will it remain to be one party or will it fall apart? Because the party went through a big defeat. To be honest, this is not a prosperity party. This is party of many plain people. If I were Dora, or whoever takes Karamanlis’ place, I would take it apart and rebuild it from ground zero. Because the Greek right needs a party for people to vote for. But not with the people the party has right now. The staff was Karamanlis’ biggest mistake. With people like Mihalis Lyapis, Viron Polidoras, Georgios Voulgaris, big politics cannot be done. People were laughing. Couldn’t Karamanlis understand that?

If you compare Kostas Karamanlis with Konstantinos Karamanlis, what would you say was common and different between them as politicians?

Again, they have nothing in common. Kostas Karamanlis does not have any of the talents of his uncle. But Konstantinos Karamanlis does not have the orator charm of Kostas. The old Karamanlis did not speak well, he had a problem with articulating. Kostas speaks very well, he is convincing but he does not possess the other qualities of his uncle.

How much time would you give to the new government?

It depends on the government itself and what it will do. If it manages to lower the national debt and to stabilize the economy, then it will remain in power for a long time. If its economy policy is good, it will also win the next elections and it can remain in power for 8 years. Greeks are now mature when it comes to painful reforms. They will agree to limitations if they see that this will help their country come out of the swamp. If they see that thefts continue, they will come out on the streets again—in other words, everything depends on PASOK’s government.